June 20, 2007

  • The Church and I: One Strike and You are Out?

    I'm sorry for the shortness of posts lately, peoples; but with this being summer, I just don't think many people are near their computers now. So for me to pour out my soul for no one to read...I'm just not willing to do that right now. Sometimes feedback matters to me, sometimes not; right now it does, so I'll hold back a little.

    That said, today I'm wondering about Christians in the church who fall due to sin, to the point that the sin become more important to them than God for some period of time. Can they really be fully restored? I'm starting to wonder if the answer truly is yes. See, I read Hebrews 10, and it talks about how it's impossible for those who fall away to be brought back to repentance. I used to think that just meant that they could not be forgiven unless they asked for it.

    But I've been disturbed lately at the inability of Christians who fall while fully Christian to be fully restored. I'm not talking about the struggles of new converts; I'm talking about a solid Christian who then willfully entraps themselves in some sort of consistent sin. Even David is never the same in II Samuel after his affair with Bathsheba. It makes me wonder (and cry, if I would truly think about it). Maybe Hebrews 10 does mean more than we think. Thoughts? You can tell I've purposely slanted this post one way, because I want you to come up with proof that I'm wrong. I want to be wrong, I assure you. 

Comments (21)

  • would that be God not restoring us, or would that be the result of the after-effects of us pursuing that sin?  (ex. guilt, shame, inability to forgive ourselves, etc). 

    How are the struggles of new converts and the struggles of a "solid christian" any different?  We're all tempted and prone to temptation and sin...aren't we?

  • See, what I'm wondering is, if you truly know the truth...experienced Christian, thousands of church services in your pocket, etc...and then you knowingly and willfully go against that truth, can it be that you have sown the seeds of your destruction? If you're a new convert, the argument for me is, you're still figuring out what's right and wrong, and sanctification takes some time. But after you've been free from sin, and you go willingly to it, I think that's different.

     It's not that God won't forgive; it's that you've broken the relationship so badly that the aftershocks continue to reverberate in your Christian life at the worst possible times. That's what I'm wondering, if that's true.

  • It is difficult for me to believe that we can ever fall into a state that is so bad that God cannot overcome it and rescue us.  Short term, yes, it can look bleak.  Long term, God is our Redeemer and Saviour.  He can bring us out of that sinful state.

    However, I do agree that it is difficult for a person to know God, fall away, and come back.  I think a lot of it has to do with pride and fear and unbelief.  Pride because a Christian doesn't like to admit that they can screw up and that they still need God even after conversion.  Fear because fear has to do with punishment, (but perfect love drives out all fear!).   Unbelief because Christians have difficulty believing that God will still forgive them after they have already repented and come to known Christ.  Ultimately, there are a lot of things working against God's people in this world, including the condeming accusations of the enemy, the guilt of sin and conscience, and the shame of out outwardly appearances to those who matter to us.  It is difficult to repent and come back to God because of these things.  But this does not make it impossible.  In any struggle of faith, it is a struggle of truth:  The Truth of God's Word against the "truth" that you believe in.  Oftentimes, I find myself realising that the "truth" I believe is not the Truth that is in the Bible, and I end up correcting my way of thought.  I think everyone goes through this every once in awhile, that is, if they are willing to be humbled and corrected.

    Something that comes to mind is the saying that "we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved."  We are constantly in the process of salvation.  It's not one and done -- the process of sanctification is ongoing.

    I ought to have more thoughts on this, but I'm sort of brain-numb these days.  Maybe I'll have something more when you or others respond.

  • Hey, any Bokgwai comment nowadays is a good one; I'll take 50% of your best over 95% of most commenters best. Thanks for commenting.

  • This is what I think about that.  I think that Christians like to judge other Christians.  What are you considering to be "willful sin"?  Because I'm pretty sure every Christian routinely engages in willful sin.  It's just that some sin is better accepted than others.  Are the majority of Christians going forth and making disciples?  Is that their life goal?  I'm sure not meeting any, and that's supposed to be the main goal of Christians.  So, then, I would venture to say that most Christians are engaging in willful disobedience.  But it's rather inconvenient to tell the majority of Christians they're being disobedient (other than a slight slap on the wrist in the form of a sermon), because if you truly offend all the churchgoers, then you might not have any money for more church!  And no pastor wants that, because pastors these days are raking it in.  So if no Christian can truly be restored after willfully sinning, I think all Christians are up Shit Creek, personally.

    But those are just my thoughts...

  • I agree with Bokgwai...regardless of how many church services you have in your back pocket, sanctification is not a process that is finite...it's ongoing and will continue through all of our days this side of heaven.

  • I too agree with Bokgwai. God is so immensely powerful that I find it hard to believe that He can't help us overcome our own sinful nature, even when it reaches a point where it's taking over our lives. Despite the fact that we, as Christians, may be saved, we're still sinful creatures who fall short of the glory of God. We will ALWAYS willfully sin, which is why our sanctification is an ongoing process. I know that I personally have been through periods in my life where I've fallen away from my faith, but Christ has always restored me. It's like that Third Day song - "How many times have I turned away? The number is the same as the sand on the shore. Every time You've taken me back, and now I pray You do it once more."

    Oh, and RYC: I'm glad you're still reading! I was definitely gonna stop writing if you weren't still reading

  • rockininkslinger made the point that it is "inconvenient to tell the majority of Christians they're being disobedient" which I think is probably the worst problem we have. In fact, one of the sins I struggle with was brought into my life by a chrisitan group and an ordained minister. I certainly take full blame for letting them influence me more than the Bible and the Spirit, but nonetheless, if the church not only refuses to preach against sin and disobediance, but also encourages it in some way by making people think that it really isn't a sin, then we need to work not only on restoring ourselves through humility and repentance, but we also need to clean up the church. And I think that the only way for us and for the church to be restored is through some heavy duty prayer and God's power. Nothing else we do can ever hope to overcome the power of sin. So dear brothers and sisters, let us pray for one another and build each other up and let us join together in paryer for the church as a body.

  • GP:  I didn't mean to offend you by stating that many pastors are raking it in.  I was only stating what I have noticed to be the case.  I used to be on staff at a church with approximately 150 members, and the pastor was making $60,000.  At the last church I left (which was much larger - about 350 to 400 members), the pastor was making $85,000.  I don't expect pastors to be paupers, but to me, if you're really trying to carry out the will of God, you don't want a giant paycheck to go with it.  I knew people at my Baptist college who were planning on going to seminary so they could, "Talk for a couple of hours a week, hang out with people and make a decent chunk of change."

    Is this every pastor?  Of course not.  But I think there's a larger number of "God-fearing men" out there leading congregations who really don't give a damn about furthering the kingdom.  They'd rather have a relatively easy job with a relatively large paycheck.  That's what I see, and I think that's what lots of people see when they look at churches and their "leadership."

  • Good for rockininkslinger and aliveuntouchable for pointing out that most Christians are willfully disobedient most of the time, especially concerning the making of disciples and such.  Aliveuntouchable is right that the Church needs "cleaned up" and also that only prayer and God's power can do that.  I'm an advocate for confronting people (lovingly of course) about visible sin in their lives but I also know that most Christians don't appreciate that, making it impossible to do much besides pray.  To respond more directly to your question I would have to answer along the lines of sunflower2457, wingfiea, and Bokgwai. 

    As to what you said about David never being the same after his affair with Bathsheba:  is that really so surprising?  Our experiences change us constantly, some for the better some for the worse.  We improve ourselves as our relationships with God strengthen and mature but, as the words of the hymn (whose name is suddenly escaping me) say, "Prone to wander, Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love...", and so we do and it leaves us scarred and worse off--perhaps.  It also makes us wiser and brings us closer to God when we repent because we are again amazed by His grace.  No, I do not think it is impossible to be fully restored.  Difficult?  Probably, but not impossible. 

  • i really really want you to be wrong about this too. i think of the parable of the prodigal son... the son hadn't just wandered off and returned... he squandered all that his father had given to him. just as we often squander and abuse God's grace and forgiveness, even after we have cleaned house and become mature believers. and even if someone "knows better" because they are a mature believer, God will still have open arms for them when they come home again.

  • thank you for your kind comment

    Thoughts about above... I believe God never gives up on people, even though we [the whole human race, including myself] give Him countless opportunities to do this [Lord Jesus!] Thinking of Romans 2:4, well that whole chapter could apply. I believe His grace is fully sufficient for a person to get OUT of the unending sin. I don't think there is any easy way to do so, or that it is the same for each person. But yes, I do believe it is possible, not be because we can somehow overcome our weakness but becuase of how GREAT God is. [something that needs a page or two vs. just a paragraph becuase it isn't just a simple 12 step plan but this is my core belief about it]

  • p.s. not only to get OUT but to live in FULL freedom, i.e. Paul. *Grimace* I do think it is much harder for a Christian, i.e. a person who has grown up knowing all the right things - but I still think it is possible

  • yeah, I think we're inclined to hold People's faults against them forever, at least the ones we consider "really bad'. In Reality, we all Mess Up, but if our faults are something We can cover up, wed rather not confess to each other, for fear of permanent judgment. (plus, we know all the people We think poorly of now have an excuse to think poorly back.) 

  • I think there's a lot there in the way the passage is formulated. While I could simply counter with Paul's confession that he sins those sins he tries the hardest not to commit (thereby emphasizing God's grace), I'll try to look at the passage itself and break it down.

    It looks like the whole passage is acutally playing off the problem of legalism and trying to live by the law alone. The idea in 10:26 actually refers to the Old Testament, singling out a sinner for purposely sinning. Verse 28 further supports this reading (as does Luther), in that it refers to breaking Mose's law. Old Testament law. Yes, the biggies, but if we remember that every sin is sin before God, then these laws should not have presidence over any others.

    Verses 35 through 39 offer the comfort. "Do not throw away your trust; it has a great reward. You need patience, so that you do the will of God and receive the promise." He then quotes Habakuk, and shows that "we"--those who believe in Christ--"are not from those, who turn back and are damned, but are among those who believe and whose souls are saved."

    I'd be curious to know the meaning of "received". And I'm wondering if my above reading is correct, honestly. It could be that he is refering to the idea of breaking the law, knowing that you can repent or sacrifice later. In that case, you are treading upon Christ's sacrifice.

    I'm also not of the school that says boom, Jesus' blood has been shed, all will be forgiven, super. I'll just go on and live now....no, we are called to live our lives in the light of Christ's sacrifice, knowing how he has freed us from our sins. To consciously sin, thinking it's all good because he's died for our sins, is to treat him as a simple Old Testament sacrifice that could be made again and again, so long as you could afford to make it. His blood comes at a price so dear, that, while it covers all sin, should not be taken lightly. I believe that's what the passage is getting at.

  • If only every apostate would subject him/herself to thorough exit interviews, we might have a better idea how to answer this question, since it's one where you have to compare your experiences to what the Bible says, which is always tricky.

  • I wrestled a lot last semester with what it means for a Christian to fall. I am confidant that Christ can complete His good work in us and nothing can take us out of His hand... do we choose to leave though. I grieve at the losses I witness within Christianity. Where are those who will live what they believe?

  • Hmm, interesting topic. I got so caught up in reading the comments that I almost forgot what I came to your page to say. And now it seems......frivolous.

    But here goes. Warning, if you didn't care for the last post, you might wanna skip my newest one. There are pictures. =P

  • RYC:  It's interesting that you say many real people are extroverts or "people without shame."  I hadn't thought of that, but many of the genuine people I know are extroverted.  That being said, my three closest friends (my husband Clayton and my buddies Heather and Sacha) are as different as can be.  Clay is extremely shy around new people and Sacha isn't much more social.  Heather, on the other hand, loves person-to-person interaction and is probably one of the most social people I've ever met.  But I wouldn't say any of them are "without shame."  They are unashamed about many of the choices they make, regardless of whether those choices are conventional, but if any of them were to do something shameworthy, I believe they would be just as capable as anyone else of feeling shame and/or remorse.

    One more thing - every Christian "virgin" bachelorette party I've attended has been exactly the same.  The sole subject of the evening is sex.  It may sound weird and you may think that the other girls should respect the bride's privacy, but I'm here to tell you that doesn't happen.  (I've been to at least 8 of these bachelorette parties.)

  • And what of the podigal son?

  • *prodigal

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