April 25, 2008
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The Female Equivalent of the Nice Guy: The Girl With Skills
As I said last time , I want to explore this legend of the Nice Guy and figure out who he is. Most people's first contact with the Nice Guys was via this "Ode to Nice Guys" column that floated around the Internet a few years ago. But this still does not fully explain the nice guy phenomenon. I thought it would be easiest to explain the Nice Guy by taking a backward approach and looking at his female equivalent: The Girl With Skills. She can also be referred to as "The Tomboy" at times--she's a guy's girl, and hangs around guys the same way the Nice Guy hangs around girls. Congrats to MeggieMay0307 for being the only commenter to realize this in my other post--it's not surprising some smart fellow is in the process of signing her to a lifetime contract. No, the opposite of the Nice Guy is not the Nice Girl--everyone knows that "Nice Girls" don't exi....err, don't hurt me! I didn't finish that! ha.
I explain The Girl With Skills. via the D-I-S-C personality type test. There are four basic personality types:
- Dominance - relating to control, power and assertiveness
- Influence - relating to social situations and communication
- Steadiness (submission in Marston's time)- relating to patience, persistence, and thoughtfulness
- Conscientiousness (or caution, compliance in Marston's time) - relating to structure and organization
Read more about it on Wikipedia, or in this article . You can also see a pictorial representation here. C and S are on the left side, with C on top, and similarly D and I are on the right side. Note that C is the direct opposite of I, and D is the direct opposite of S. This is important to note later on.
Now, I am going to speculate for a moment. I am going to assume that the ideal women for most American men has an "I" personality. She is very feeling-intuition oriented, she is sociable and easy to talk to, she is enthusiastic and persuasive. It's like having your own personal cheerleader, personality-wise. I am similarly going to assume that the ideal man for most American women has a "D" personality. He is tough, strong-willed, independent, confident, and demanding. We'll talk more about men next time.
Where does that leave the "Girl with Skills"? The one who hangs out with the guys? The one who knows how to shoot a basketball, run a business, program a computer, tell a joke, or hunt a deer as well as any man? She's logical, careful, and plays by the rules. There's little risk that this woman will suddenly run off to Vegas with the mailman, the way the "I" woman might. Are men justified for turning her down? Or are they being too picky? After all, she's practically one of them! You'll note that I have not said anything yet about her looks, because that is not the issue. We are assuming we have two average-looking girls--one with the "I" personality, the other with the "C" personality. Yet the "I" personality gets more dates. Why?! Are men being fair?
Here are some valid reasons why it's ok for us men to turn these women down. For one, they are surprisingly shy when it comes to romance and don't want to take risks. We never even know they're asking or interested, so how can we be blamed for turning them down?! Girls with Skills hang around us in the lab 8 hours a day, and never make it clear that they want us to ask them to hang out outside the lab as well. Or, and I want to be careful with this one, they sometimes will de-emphasize their womanhood because they are so interested in their field. I am a fan of the natural look, and women should not feel they have to dress up every day. Plus, female athletes are no less feminine than female non-athletes, and if you disagree with me on this, I will fight you. But...if Girls with Skills never dress up...well, for a lot of men we need to see that to get attracted.
Another good reason for men to reject them is that Girls with Skills are so obsessed with collecting skills, that they don't have time for us. When I was 18, I asked them to have lunch together, and they were busy applying for college; when I was 21, I asked them to come to some group meeting, and they were busy applying for jobs or studying for exams; at 25, they were too busy to come to dinner, because "work is really keeping me busy"; at 30, they suddenly wake up, look for a man, and are horrified that none seems to be around. Then they get profiled by the New York Times and get all weepy, and we're supposed to believe that men are threatened by their intellect and that we're not respecting strong women?! Let's just say that I did some furious deleting of a few sentences before answering this. I say, some of us have been asking you for the last decade, and if you think things are more important than people now, how much worse will you be if we're married? Guys are absolutely right in avoiding this type of personality on those grounds.
Finally, sometimes these women will embarrass a guy whose skills doesn't match up to her. This can happen in a conscious or unconscious way. If I'm talking sports with a woman and I don't know who is the first baseman for the Marlins this year, she should tell me with grace, not make me feel like I'm less of a man for not knowing that bit of trivia. Sadly, some "C" women do this (although this is more of a problem for "C" men). Or, she rates us to death on a ruthless scale--every man she knows is on this rating scale, and if you're not an 8.5 or above, you are nothing.
But on the other hand, guys are NOT right to reject her just because they are so attracted to this cheerleader "I" personality that her natural opposite, the Girl With Skills, is ignored. I would marry a "Girl With Skills" tomorrow, if one would have me. She's patient, reliable, hard-working, and passionate about ideas. When she loves you, she loves with a special passion eminating from her joy that someone loves her for her brain, body, and soul at the same time without rejecting any of the three. She's the woman you want to mother your children, because she patiently will run them to 21 extra-curricular activities, just so they can have a better life. Sure, you have to make sure her work-aholic tendencies or occasionally overly analytical heart don't get the best of her. And yes, it is not fun to have her put your skills on trial, or to dispassionately analyze you. But once you pass those tests, she's a wonderful woman to have on your side.
I want to save some of my conclusions (and homemade graphics!) for the Nice Guy post. But the bottom line is, she can be a wonderful woman for the right type of guy. If D and I are the ideal men and women...then perhaps she, as a C, is the perfect match for the S personality? Ooh, we have a hypothesis! And is the S personality the famed Nice Guy--have we identified him at last?! I'll explore this idea next time.
Comments (46)
You really love this whole "Girl-Guy" thing, don't you? LOL.
And though I agree with you about the S Girl, again, don't put down the I Girl. Just because you think that most I Girls have lots of dates and are sociable, etc, doesn't mean ALL I Girls are the same, and that ALL I Girls don't face problems or are disloyal, hardworking, etc.
Wow! Very well thought out...can't wait to see what you have to say about the Nice Guys. As for this post, it's great. I can identify with the C category to some extent. I think I may come back to this post again a little later.
@FreeeVerse -
Oh, I don't. If you look carefully, I'm just reading off the traits labeled in the picture above for the "I" personality; their bubbly, energetic personality also sometimes makes them too reckless or flighty. I'm trying to present both the good and bad sides of the "I" and "C" personalities.
Once upon a time, I talked about topics not involving guys and girls, or churches, ha, but that was years ago :-p I do have some other post ideas, but I have no time anymore, so I tend to return to the same themes.
Also, in my culture... The I Girl is not the "ideal" woman. That's why this is a little touchy with me. I'm an I Girl, but it's not looked at in a good light here. Most girls are S Girls. Go figure
@FreeeVerse -
That's why I said "Most American men" love "I" type girls.
You should move to America! ha. We'll see--I'm sure many "I" type girls will try to say that men don't like them because they are too outspoken. But I doubt that.
@GreekPhysique - If I go to the US, I would be a C Girl instead. I'm nowhere near as "loud" or as "outspoken" as American I Girls
But yeah, I was saying all that earlier from my perspective, my culture, though I got the part where you said "most American men" 
[I've never been to the US - so shoot me!]
Ha!
My friend, when trying to understand why gues weren't interested, decided that it was because I'm "too nice". Can you write an entry on that?
Seriously, who ARE these people? I'm sure someone will take a look at me and fit me into one of these "categories". But personally, I couldn't fit myself into these kinds of little categories, in fact I can see aspects of myself in all of them, not that I've ever been happy trying to fit into little boxes. I never cared for the reductionist approach in classifying people; I always think of us as the highly complex beings we usually are. Although I have a hard time believing guys' theories on this sort of thing. In my experience they tell you one thing and then proceed to do another. They're looking for type X, chase type X, etc., until they settle down with type Y. Many men I've known are happy to reduce things down to a science, then break their own scientific laws. So why bother doing it in the first place?
Just remember, C personalities turn into soccer moms. Yikes!
I love this post. It's wildly offensive, politically incorrect, and perfectly accurate.
I'm mostly an S (with C characteristics, as well), while Addy is much more a C with some D characteristics. You'd think we'd be more incompatible, or at least bored with one another, but not everything fits into a tidy little box like that, I guess.
Well most men date the girls that aren't right for them because the "girls with skills" will always be there... he gets two for the price of one, basically.
Ah, the girls with skills thing being too busy is so true. Tonight I turned down the seventh ask out from the same person... to study. Even though I'd MUCH rather be watching a stupid movie, I also want to graduate...
@FreeeVerse -
HEY!
I'm not that loud. ;P
@squeakysoul -
I agree.
I used to be the girl with skills. I think it has to do with lack of confidence. I lacked confidence in myself but I could put confidence in the things I did. My life changed dramatically when I started to accept myself.
@GermanWrench - I've taken the test... and you'd be surprised, coz my D is rather low
I'm a high I and a mid C. LOL! I guess I come across as a high D on Xanga, eh? 
@GreekPhysique -
Yeah right.
Admit it; you have a thing for "Guy-Girl" issues.
Heehee. XD
Wow, I've never really thought about it so black-and-white, but this makes a lot of sense. You spent a lot of time thinking about this, didn't you?
Lifetime contract, haha...that's great.
I agree with you. This makes a ton of sense! When is the nice guy post coming?
this hit pretty close to home. while I have a couple point so contention (Skills Girls being workaholics and not dressing up - I think they may be overgeneralizing), but I see your salient points and largely agree. good job. you deserve props for this one.
It's a good post. Thought provoking. I personally don't like to categorise people especially using basic grid group cultural theory but it can be a useful exercise to engage in. People are more than some psychological categorisation. (I realise you are aware of this)
I definitely agree on the point that you need to make time for a relationship. Both men and women. There's no point in complaining about being single if you're not making the time or space for someone to have a shot at you.
I'm subscribed to your blog now so I'll be at least skimming if not reading all of your posts. Glad to have connected with you.
I found this post via 20 Something Bloggers and I agree with a lot of it! I do have a comment about one part, though:
... if you think things are more important than people now, how much worse will you be if we're married? Guys are absolutely right in avoiding this type of personality on those grounds.
I would say this logic should apply to ambitious, go-getter men as well!
I would say that I am an I/S girl...but then again, others may think different.
@spokenfor -
Yeah, I agree. I'm definitely a "Skills Girl" and I dress up all the time! Also, I think it's interesting that you suggest that women who apply for college don't have time to go on a date. How do men manage it? Are you saying that the man in question didn't apply for college and was instead spending all of his time looking for a girlfriend? Seems unlikely.
I took a personality test that divided you into these characteristics and their combinations.
Extrovert versus Introvert.
Sensing versus iNtuition.
Thinking versus Feeling.
Judging versus Perceiving.
Kinda reminiscent to what you're talking about. Personally, I think it just makes life more smoother when you date someone of the same or of a very similar personality.
If you're interested in learning about it, look up the myers and briggs personality test.
I don't know, I see myself in all of the character points and, since 'coming out in the son,' moving here to where i know no one and starting grad school where i am constantly busy, legitimately, i wonder if that impacts my personality, at least per this test.
but, in light of your distinctions between s and i, i'm placing myself as a girl with skills. busy and single in other words (and, of course, strong and very intellectual as you infer above
). but now you've got me thinking: am i missing out on those guys asking me without even realizing it? ... probably not. i really only know nice taken guys and guys who are taken but pretend their not. which means, am i allowing my busy-ness to be an excuse to avoid the situation? perhaps. i tangentially wrote about it last night. and linked to your post.
thanks for the insights, its very well written and thought out. though i want to know what you furiously deleted!
@come_a_little_bit_closer - haha well, let's just say that I am mostly a "C" personality myself, so I not only thought about the "C" girls that may have turned me down, but also the opportunities I lost because I was too busy working on projects to make friends and enjoy life...there may have been a couple expletives there and general "WAKE UP AND STOP VALUING THINGS OVER PEOPLE!" type comments, yes. :-p
Thank you for your comment!
I'm like... an orange person, I think.
very very interesting.
all's I know is :
if I see one. more. blog speculating about, puzzling over, hypothesizing through, bemoaning, criticizing, defending, dissecting or analyzing relationships and singlehood or men, women, nice men, horny men, strong women, weak women, lonely men, lonely women, lonely strong women, loney weak women, lonely nice men, or lonely horny men ...
I AM GOING TO BURN XANGA DOWN.
*clears throat*
nice post though!
@journal_of_a_working_girl - LOL see, this is the type of reader I like. That is a great comment.
@wingfiea - Female engineers are totally women with skills, you know.
Come on, I know you thought more than just "interesting." 
Share more, if you would be so kind.
Thoughtful post. I don't know if I would say everything quite that way, but it is a thoughtful approach. But that DISC chart confused me. I'm trying to figure out which one I am and all I can think of examples that fit [almost] every category.
So I've decided that I just adapt to what the situation calls for (all though I know from personal experience that it doesn't always work out that well).
ha... So I have done the myers briggs several times and I'm always INFP. I JUST did the DISC test for this personality thing for work and I'm D and I (my D is a little stronger than my I). I would consider myself a girl with skills, but I can also be rather girly.
I think that more often than we realize we categorize people. We may not assign them DISC or myers-briggs letters, but we will often (sub-consciously) put people in boxes. When I find out the people I generally get along with the best...they're personalities are a certain type...whereas the ones I don't get along with the best are another type of personality. I may be a girl with skills, but I generally do not get along with strong engineering types...surprisingly enough.
Hehehe, I like the fact that you say that female athletes are no less feminine than female non-athletes. Thank you! ...This coming from a current soccer player and track runner :) P.S.-I find this article completely fascinating and I can totally relate to the "Girl with Skills."
I have to admit I find it rather odd that you seem to equate a competent woman as being "like men".
@beautywithin2851 - Female athletes deserve more respect than they get.
@betsyordie - Betsy, please read the post again. I am referring to a SUBSECTION of skilled women who (a) have a "C" type personality (b) hang out with men a lot and (c) are obsessed with skills/tasks over people. Not all skilled women, promise.
Haha, this was great. Never seen a post written on the flip side. ;p
I have to say that I don't like Ds. I've rejected Ds. I like Ss and Is. I'm a C, but it's not like I was too busy to socialize with men. I did socialize but just haven't found one to marry. I blame my academic calling for the lack of men. The majority of students in my program were women. I sometimes think I should have gone into an area with more men. That might have had more to choose from.
The stereotypical "nice guy" label does not refer to a guy who is nice. It refers to a guy who is a chump. A guy who craves and needs attention from a woman to the point of crawling on his knees after her, being her puppy, and buying her gifts in hopes of winning her affection. It's like a bribe - "I'll do all of these things for you and then you'll sleep with me..or go out with me..or whatever it is that I want"
Girls don't have to be quiet and shy to have "skills". Bubbly, fun, feminine girls can still be tomboys and just because they are extroverted and intuitive does not make them any less intelligent. I don't know where this image of smart girls having to be quiet, serious, shy, unwilling to take risks, tomboyish, etc. comes from because it is a huge generalization and a completely incorrect stereotype.
And then you have all those intriguing men and women who refuse to fit in anyones box. I think they're my favorite people of all.
iv been a , ' im too busy' kinda girl recently. hmmm. food for thought. im not sure which i am though. i think i have parts of each of those personality types!!! :/
@Oribi - I have an issue with the first part of this person's comment, as it is so obviously narrowed up into negativity and isn't even true - those guys are what we call needy. Needy is not nice; people, men or women, who will do things for you so long as you sleep with them are not nice. Maybe I'm too concentrated on semantics but it'd be "nice" if people would actually use words in real context! Nice guys are guys who will be nice, good with no strings attached, because it's just who/how they are. Simple. Needy men who can't get any is the term for that guy described in this comment. Or is that too literal... sheesh.
I agree wholeheartedly, though, with the latter part of the comment. Too, too true. It's the problem I have with categories. Girls with skills can be married or in long-term relationships very young too... those I know are. Because with them tomboyish types, there's less of the game-playing, ya know? It's why a lot of men gravitate towards them, more so than girly-girls who buy wedding mags and "how to catch a man" books, lol...
I feel like I veered off course.
It was a great post. Definitely an interesting p.o.v... thanks for linking it!
Surely it's a known fact that a really smart woman knows how to make a man feel that he really needs her! And not because he can see that she is 'super-intelligent' but because she is able to satisfy his emotional needs. She's far from dumb, but is very careful not to flaunt her intellect, even though she could do so if she wished to. She's good in the bedroom but she's also good in the kitchen!
"Can she bake a cherry pie, Billy Boy, Billy Boy? Can she bake a cherry pie charming Billy?
Wonderfully written post! I love how you to tried to think of all the possible reasons and such. Thank you for sharing this with us. Looking forward for your next post.
@journal_of_a_working_girl - Rotfl. Your comment is just...amazing! Totally made my day/night. =D
Strangely, I don't know any women who are like The Girl With Skills as you describe her, so I can't tell if this assessment is accurate. From my perspective, you're trying to analyze a mythological being.
I work hard but I always try to make time for fun to be with my friends and boyfriend, if I have one.
i wish you would call the boxes by color: "C is yellow," that'd make it easier to analyze.
I know a girl with an I personality, and she has yet to find a boyfriend. I think an ideal girl is a D (maybe S), since she's more outgoing and not so demanding/uncompromising. But if we're talking about ideals, ideally, women would be a mixture of more than one square. However, since we're making fine lines here, i would think that I am a C. Therefore, I can't help but want to throw a wrench into your analysis-- Is it the personality that makes her a nonedatable "C," or is the fact that men are uninterested in her, that pushes her to become a career-oriented "C"? One must take into consideration what a "C"'s definition of interest is. I know some of shy girls who would rather warm up to a man than to date him right off the bat; for me, if a guy asks me out without getting to really know me, I'd think he was shallow (ie. how can you have feelings for me when you don't jack about me?! Are all of your romantic feelings based solely off of the way I look?). I think those things should be taken into consideration as you formulate your hypotheses about personality types. There are so many different types of personalities out there, that is seems as though, similar to looks, a "dateable personality" is in the eye of the beholder.
But anyway! interesting post! i like the ending, and it made me think a lot.
After reading this...its pretty clear I will never ever have a date again. I think now is a good time to just go build my tiny house on a trailer and haul it off to the woods where I can live alone with my dog. Oh well.
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