January 13, 2009
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Good People vs. Great People
I read and enjoyed Sam's post on "Good People Vs. Good Christians." It well-represents the feelings of many Xangans who grew up in the church but no longer frequent its services, nor read their Bibles or pray. However, I thought that a lot of the comments failed to get at some of the issues with Sam's argument, and I'll do so here.
My problem with being a "good person" apart from Christianity is that I believe that left to my own devices, without accountability, my morals start to become corrupted. Worse, most of us have an optimistic, short-sighted view of our own goodness. Because Christianity taught most of us "the rules", we find ways to re-interpret the rules so that we still pass the test. So for many of us, "Don't steal" becomes "Don't steal anything expensive", "Be kind and tenderhearted" becomes "As long as they consent, it's ok" or "They deserved it", and "Share with those in need" becomes "I give to the Salvation Army at Christmas". Our morals slowly start to fall apart, but because most of our friends are also becoming more corrupt over time, we stay slightly ahead of our peers, and so we don't notice the slippage. We're still known as the "good person" in the group...but good relative to what? I was one of the tallest kids in my small high school and played center in basketball--but trust me, that didn't make me Shaquille O'Neal!
Given this tendency toward personal corruption, then, for true greatness, we must be accountable to something bigger and stronger than ourselves. Now, some people can replicate this by having great role models, or by being faithfully observant to a moral code. I'm certainly not suggesting that only Christians can be great people. But what being accountable (to sermons, to role models, to a psychologist, to a spiritual book, to God) does, is that as we become more observant and strive for more goodness, we notice just how flawed we are. We notice just how often we steal, just how often we are selfish and do not share, just how often we'll take whatever we can get. Rather than being convinced of our goodness, we become convinced of our badness. And for me, that's where Christianity kicks in. All my education, all my street smarts, all my little tricks can't save me from the evil in my heart and around me, and so I find myself driven towards a Savior to save me from my sins--quite frankly, to save me from myself!
Now for some of you, perhaps you are brave and strong enough to save yourselves, with the help of good books and good friends. I have high respect for a strong atheist, or strong Muslim, or strong anything--one who bets their life on one belief and holds fast to it despite doubts and enticements. But I personally am not strong enough to save myself. And that is why I find that I cannot be good without being a Christian...and that to be truly great, I must embrace Christianity wholeheartedly, even if doing so exposes me for the sanctimonious paternalistic hypocrite that I may be at times.
Anyway, that's my take, and no disrespect meant to Sam, who I highly respect and is definitely a better writer than I am. I just wanted to weigh in on this topic at some point, since there are so many prior church-goers who fit in the generic category Sam mentioned, and this seemed like a convenient place to tackle the issue
Comments (19)
Well-responded! There's something about greatness that must be thrust upon an individual to make a person great.
Nicely said, my friend. I agree wholeheartedly. Oh, and thanks for the kind words on DuckTape's last post.
yes yes, good post, good thoughts, all that jazz.
You were a CENTER?! And you failed to tell me this BECAUSE...?!?! Are you afraid I would start stalking you, the way I stalk Tyler?
great response GP. good job articulating yourself.
God completely trys to keep me in line when it comes to certain things. I strive to be a good person, but find time after time I get in my own way. Sometimes you could use a little push in the right direction.
The role of religion is certainly interesting, but at any rate, I think people choose whether or not to hold themselves accountable. People with religion may or may not, and people without may or may not. I'm always interested in considering what God means in our lives, especially pertaining to our sense of responsibility. I personally find that the strongest enforcer of morality for me is myself. You're right in that we shouldn't simply compare ourselves to others, but the fact is that I find the messages of what is good and what is not good so cryptic that I tend to rely on what I see. However, I believe that resorting to this larger being takes the control of my life away from me, but of course, my reasons for feeling this way contrast heavily to many religious people. I am fallible and therefore cannot surely know any infallible source, so my actions are justified just as well by myself (in what I believe is right) as by what I believe to be infallible.
I have no idea if that made any sense. I began to ramble. Drats.
Great post.
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-Anna.
"My problem with being a "good person" apart from Christianity is that I
believe that left to my own devices, without accountability, my morals
start to become corrupted."
*nods*
And without having that standard of what the Bible says a true Christian should be, I let moral ambiguities slip in. So like you say...all of this is to save me from myself.
Liked this post a lot.
I would have to say that I'm a good person. I DO believe in god but i am not good christian. I don't go to church. i don't read the bible. But I do say a prayer every night and i do thank god for everything that I have. I'm glad that I was raised in a church and i definatly think it has made me a better person
Greek.
Somewhere in the mix "God" became an abstraction, something of my past that had an ever-lasting impact on my soul. Though it may be seen as sad to some people, I don't think that I'm a better person at all when in the company of "Christians" or even when I'm in the company of the Bible. This, in my opinion, is because it seems that there was a moral compass given to me at some point that, though I've had to tinker with a bit to figure out, has never failed to get me back on track. My firm belief is that everyone has probably developed a device of their own but it has now become a matter of priority and/or trickery.
Have you considered what your life would be like without this ever-loving presence that some people call God? What about the people you would/could befriend if you stopped attending church? Do you think that your life would be so different than it is now that you wouldn't even recognize yourself? I considered all of these things and more after moving hundreds of miles away from a church that had become my second home, with a body that had become more than family.
Not until I was isolated from these outside influences did I realize that I was more corrupt with them than without them. This certainly isn't to say that the church was made up of bad people because I'm sure that the church that I attended had a wonderful impact on a lot of its members. Though I'm still friends (READ: still communicate) with many of the people from the aforementioned church, they are better dealt with on an individual basis, so as to reduce their clout and to allow me to make decisions that are in my own best interest.
The first thought that goes through my head when making a decision is still "HOW WILL THIS IMPACT OTHER PEOPLE?" but I weigh my decisions differently because my priority is no longer satisfying an entire church body (and God) but, instead, satisfying the people that actually care about my well-being and their own. If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of hidden agendas but that's something that I'll perhaps try to touch on another day.
~FKM~
"Now for some of you, perhaps you are brave and strong enough to save yourselves, with the help of good books and good friends."
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@weedorwildflower - I think that if you both get married, Weedie and Duckie is a great name for the program.
@Carolina17 - LOL I can't post up worth squat, but I do rebound and block shots. So is that the secret then? I'll have to mention it to girls more often. :-p
@StorybookAuthor - Of course, the trouble with relying on an organized religious system is that not all of them are good. Some of them are rotten. Others try to hold people to an artificial standard of conduct, organized by higher-ups, rather than teaching the people how to really find and apply truth for themselves. But the basic concept is good--I still believe that being good without accountability is impossible.
@my0nlyh0p3 - thanks!
@spokenfor - thanks!
@basketballqt25 - Oh, it definitely helped. But my argument would be that it would help even more to get more invested in it. It seems like some tough things are going on in your life with family and boyfriends, and maybe the right church and role models would help. I mean, I say that in a nice way--I don't want you to feel bullied by my advice here, ha--but I do think it might help.
@NightCometh - I really didn't go all the way with this post. I do believe that some people can be good moral people without God--in other words, they can to outward appearances seem very good and nice and all. But I don't believe that one can be saved without God. I was referring to the first scenario when I said that, makes sense?
@dAzEdNdEfUSED - Oh, I have moved hundreds of miles away from my family too, and have had to try to find new churches and new fellowships. I agree that there's a basic standard of morality that we can keep. But as I had problems finding a church and was left spiritually adrift, I found strange holes in my standards. For example, I find myself becoming lazy and selfish...I still do nice things for my friends, but I really don't try to help anyone who's not my friend. Yet, that really isn't that moral of me--it's a very lazy standard just to look out for my people, you know?
Now, I left open in my post that some people can be moral to outward appearances without God (see above discussions). And it seems that you are able to do that to a point because of the friends that surround you. I won't dispute that too hard, because only you know. But that does help prove my larger point--morality that is not reinforced by something outside of yourself (role models/friends/God) quickly falters. And I do believe God is the best source of re-energized morality within us. Just my take on it.
I think one of the key questions is "good relative to what?" I'm pretty sure just about anybody could find someone they consider "worse" to compare to so they feel better about themselves. Of course then you could start a whole different debate which I don't feel like touching. But basically, compared to God, I suck at this whole life thing. So yeah, help is needed.
I too, think you need more than yourself - and your own power. Good Post, and I am thankful for Sam's courage to even bring up religion on his blog.
Good Post
Amen to this, if it weren't for living to love and please God, I would be much more selfish, jealous and other things that aren't good at all, even when revised for my own standards
I thought great people exist, but they don't, just good people.
LOL @ "even if doing so exposes me for the sanctimonious paternalistic hypocrite that I may be at times."
Not a bad response. I particularly liked Sam's post as well.
I'm dying :[
I used to get into discussions about this with an Atheist on the msg. board I moderate. The problem that he had with this is that he sees it as weakness to need God in order to be a good person. Because he doesn't kill or steal or is nice to people, he sees himself as a good person and he doesn't need God for that. Because he's not Hitler, he doesn't see himself as sinful/in need of grace/what have you. He often said "I don't need some imaginary friend in the sky to make me act like a good person. I am a good person, whether that friend is there or not and will punish me or not."
That always rubbed me the wrong way but I know it was because it was hitting up against my pride. While I don't do the whole "I'm a dirty, rotten sinner" mantra (I believe that we are His children, created in His image, and deeply loved by him), I do know that we have a sickness in us called sin. But it's hard to argue that with someone who doesn't believe they are sinful to begin with.
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