November 13, 2009
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Fighting for Faith: Nice Without Jesus?
Note: This post is specifically aimed at people who once were Christian but now are starting to drift away because they see no real value or difference to being Christian. It's not intended to suggest or cast judgment on those who never were. As I said at beginning, I'm writing this more for a Christian audience, although all are welcome to comment as long as it's done in open-minded fashion.
Many people grow up Christian but slowly start to leave the faith over time. They never really hated Christianity. They just thought it a touch unreasonable at times. After finding enough they disliked, they slowly stopped going to church, and just kind of merrily drift along in an undefined cloud of spirituality. They might still go to church if you asked, and have decent memories of Christianity. It's just not for them anymore. And they are really nice people still.
So then, the answer to the question "Can you be a non-Christian and still nice?" is yes. There is no question that many people manage to be very nice despite no longer believing in God, Jesus, or the church--if they ever did. It's tempting to see Christianity as some sort of training wheel. Yes, it taught me to love my fellow man and not to steal when I was little, but as I got older, what did it have to teach me? I learned my lessons and moved on. I've graduated!
However, I think that a few things are wrong with the idea that one can truly be good without God. First, when a Christian decides that God is no longer the arbiter of morality, God must be replaced by something. Is that something society? Well, we all know that each society has its particular strain of sin and wickedness--over time, we'll fall for the same. Call me naive, but I do insist that goodness is more than just meeting the status quo for the miserable era that you happened to inhabit. Is that something you? Ah, better--I do appreciate someone who sets their own intrinsic standards and refuses to be a sheep. It's why my friends often tend to be cultural outsiders--I admire them for their independence and willingness to leave the herd. However...over time, we deceive ourselves. I believe that the natural tendency for most humans is to overestimate their own goodness, and underestimate the power of evil to sound reasonable and even good.
Ordinary goodness can only go so far. I'm reminded of the story of the rich young ruler. He was good by society's standards. He obeyed his parents. He refused to steal, murder, or lie. He was sexually faithful. And yet, his own standards failed him in his greatest area of weakness. He was addicted to his wealth, and anytime his "niceness" came in contact with his wealth, his niceness lost. Is it truly goodness if our best is only doing what is socially acceptable? what is seen by others? what is least risky?
True goodness requires constant recalibration. We drift off to our own addictions or priorities when left to ourselves. A truly wise man or woman realizes this, and gains recalibration from friends or wise books. But all of those are merely reflections of the goodness that is God. I believe that without contact with God, we lose our goodness, imperceptible piece by imperceptible piece. We may not do others harm, but we refuse to do them good. We may not do something overly wicked that would get us tossed in jail, but we feel a well-earned tinge of guilt over certain things...and do them anyway. Oh, some of us are lucky. Most of my vices are hidden due to my shyness and temperament, to be honest. But those closest to me know, and so do your friends. In the end, I don't think it's possible to leave a Christian faith that was truly healthy and maintain the same moral standards. Fight the temptation that it's all the same--that you've already learned your lessons. I'm 29, and it seems I've learned a host of new lessons this year on how many oddly evil thoughts and ideas can come to mind. Without faith, I would be powerless to those passions. So I still fight, weakly at times, but I still fight.
Comments (26)
Ordinary goodness doesn't save anyone...The Bible tells us no one is good, no not one...Human goodness is as filthy rags to God...If our goal is to be nice people in the eyes of men, anyone can do that. But if you want to live eternally with God and bear good fruit, live a good life, then you can only do so as you've been born again. God's standard is 100% perfection. No one can meet that. That's why Christ came to live the life we couldn't live and die to take the punishment our sin deserved. When we believe in Christ, God credits His righteousness to our account and sees us as if we never sinned, as if we are perfect.
You're right when you say that we can only fight temptation/sin by the power of God.
I left.
I'm happy.
I left b/c I found that no matter where it was that I stood, there was no peace of mind.That I had to create my own peace of mind. Truthfully speaking, reading the Bible through and through, meditating on its scriptures, church.. None of those things brought to me a true peace of mind.
On one hand, yes the world is a very wicked place. My eyes have and seemingly will always see "war" when I see people. The war amongst the heart of men, of the truth withheld in one's intentions. The war against deception from others, and self deception. The war on "love" and the illusion of love.
All of life is a war. Believing God would save me from it, in turn only ended up causing me to create a biased view of everyone, as if I were any better than anyone else.
I would rather truly be nothing, and disappear with the wind, then to have a biased outlook on any individual, regardless of whom I've sided with. That to me, means that I should live alone. My God is in me.
"We may not do others harm, but we refuse to do them good."
This is a good line.
"even our most righteous acts are filthy rags before God"
the fact of the matter is nothing we do is going to be "good enough" it is the sacrifice of Jesus that makes us acceptable before God.
good blog
I really like this. Good insight. I completely agree. : )
I really love the last line. You did a really nice job with this!!!!!!!
I love your posts this month!
Yes, people think that as long as they are good persons and are nice to everyone, they'll go to heaven. They do not seek the perfection that God wants us to reach, and do not desire the goodness of God. It is time consuming and unfulfilling.
I love the story of the young rich man that you cited, though, I had a slightly different interpretation than you did. The young man was perfect in everything, but only had that one weakness that he couldn't give up, and that stopped from from following Christ, that stopped him from being able to become perfect. When we read that Christ asked this rich fellow to sell ALL that he had, it seems unreasonable and demanding of Christ. However, it is the worldly addictions that we must completely give up. We always have that one weakness that holds us back and that we struggle with, that one thing that holds us back, whether we know it or not. Those who leave the church are doing it because one way or another, they are not prepared to give up that one thing, are not prepared to struggle with it, and are not prepared to face the guilt that we feel when we see how we have sinned against God.
"True goodness requires constant recalibration." That pretty much summarizes it perfectly.
Martha
@Simply_Cynical - Christianity is not meant to just give you peace of mind, and that is certainly not the first thing you will feel when you encounter the Holy Scriptures and start talking with Christ. The very first temptation you will feel is pride, and that can only come from you, not from realizing the changes you are obligated to make in your life as a follower and believer in Christ. You don't become something "better" than anyone else, you become a different species. If they're not the same species as you, how can you judge them according to your own lifestyle? The world is a wicked place, but that is not the Christian's concern. The Christian's concern is the wickedness inside of him and realizing how it affects the world. As he removes his wickedness, he betters the world around him, and when others see him, they are encouraged to remove their wickedness as well.
The very first step is a seeking after the Truth, and whatever that Truth is, however harsh the realization is, it will offer one peace of mind. The second step is repentance, and repentance is constant changing. Christianity is not a school of zen or something. Not some meditation for half an hour a day to get away from the world, but being away from the world completely, at all times. The main principles of Christianity are love and humility, and those things require true peace of mind to be executed properly. A constant peace of mind, not from being strengthened from tribulations, but from companionship with Christ. Companionship with Christ means fleeing from temptation and struggling with the temptations already inside of us, not being horrified when we encounter them and then blaming it on God.
You expect yourself to be perfect at the very first minute, and that completely far from the truth. The Truth of Christianity is that we must lead a life of repentance, and constant recalibration as John said, and live with the reality that we can only strive toward Perfection, but will never reach it. What will redeem us is our struggle and our striving, not where we get from there, and the Blood of Christ will justify us. During that striving and repentance comes the constant realization at how worthless we truly are when we are apart from God. When we eliminate that pride we can have peace of mind. We can rest in God, knowing that He is the Truth and feeling how great a love He loves us with, how unworthy we are of it, when are only a speck of dust.
Your interpretation of being "nothing" does not carry an ounce of humility. Slipping away from everyone else for fear of sinning and "living alone" are things completely devoid of love of others and love of God, and are only seeking after self preservation, being guilt-free, and are completely prideful. The point is not to see that you are just like everyone else. The point is a true and legitimate understanding that you are much lower than everyone else.
Maybe you weren't patient enough to wait for the peace of mind, or maybe you weren't struggling. This "peace of mind" only comes about when you see the love of God and come to believe the great Gift He has given us. If you do not try very hard to be good, you will not realize the wickedness within you, and you will not realize why this Gift is so great, and why the love of God is so valuable. don't know what else you were expecting.
@liferemainsbeautiful - This all sounds like changing of intention to me. I bring no wickedness to anything or anyone around me. I don't want to be "worth" anything in anyone's eyes. I want my own peace of mind. The torment that is associated with constant repenting of sins I'm not even personally aware of committing, isn't my forte'. Guilt for some, motivates and creates great men and women of God, who in which would never accept such a claim themselves. Who would still see themselves as lower than the dirt they walk on.
Fear isn't a part of my psyche, and I refuse to feign such a trait.
Men don't rise to another's expectations; they rise to their level of training. I was not trained to fear anything, or anybody. The only thing I fear, is myself... and I find that a bit disappointing, if I do say so myself.
@Simply_Cynical - I don't understand how you are saying anything different than what I said. Yeah, I'm saying you had the wrong intentions when approaching Christianity. I didn't say you brought any wickedness to anyone, I'm saying we are all wicked, a fallen human nature. I'm not saying you wanted to be worth anything, I'm saying you achieve peace of mind when you sincerely realize that you really aren't worth anything. But if you stop there, that will only lead to despair; you have to realize that yes, you are not worth anything--when you are apart from God. You have to realize that you are 1 and 1 x Infinity = Infinity.
It isn't "torment"--your view is still completely one-sided and self-centered. The guilt isn't the starting point. The guilt comes from love. If you don't love God, obviously you will hate the idea of feeling guilt. If you don't understand the difference between good and bad in the first place, the guilt is tormenting and useless. But if you think that you should never feel guilt in your life, no matter what wrong you do, that is prideful and very weak.
Who said anything about fear? I was talking about the love of God, I repeated it several times. If you don't love God back, you won't realize you are hurting Him with sin. You fear yourself, and you are right. The only thing there is to fear is yourself. As St. Antony said, "This is the great work of the man: always to take the blame for his own sins, and to expect temptation until his last breath." It's all a chain reaction. When you realize that you cannot blame others for your sin, you realize that you are the only enemy you have to overcome. When you realize how small you are and how great God is, you realize that that enemy is very weak, and that it's desires are nothing compared to the pleasure in God. When that is realized, you can now constantly destroy your will and allow God's will to overcome you.
Are you a writer?
Good thoughts... some people seem to equate being nice with being good. Still it's good to be nice though
@liferemainsbeautiful - You
haven't said anything that I don't know, or haven't studied. That's the
problem. I just don't care. You keep saying how I should feel like i'm
nothing without God. I don't want to feel like I'm something with God.
I pretty much don't want to feel like anything under any circumstances.
I don't blame others for my sin. I don't associate love and fear in the
same breath. I never have. I've never made the correlation. I don't
fear hurting the ones I love. I don't fear being hurt by the ones I
love. Guilt comes from wrongdoing. If you're going to tell me, that I
should believe everything I do will be wrong, simply because of my
being born, then fine. Sounds like a wonderful life... except not. I am
nothing. Nothing at all. I don't want to be in any entity's favor. I
want nothingness. It's not that I feel Christianity to be bad or
anything; I have nothing against it. I'm just not for it.
@Simply_Cynical - I didn't say you "should" feel nothing without God, I said that is the whole striving in a Christian's life, after true humility. I also didn't say that everything you do is going to be wrong just being a human being. Thanks for taking my words completely out of context, though.
I was just replying to your claim that you can't find peace of mind in the Church/Christianity. If you find that you live comfortably away from any "Entity's favor" that's up to you. In fact, that is probably the only way to live comfortably, just don't claim that believing in God is what caused you to have a "bias view of everyone" and feel like you were "better than everyone else." That's all you, Huey.
@liferemainsbeautiful - @Simply_Cynical - Good debate, but I suggest you both continue discussing this by message, if you so choose. I find that in many comment discussions, things tend to fall apart/get a bit edgy if the debate is prolonged.
Not trying to discourage debate--just want to be careful a little bit because I know feelings can get intense.
@Simply_Cynical - You hear that Huey? He told you get off his site! ^_^
@liferemainsbeautiful - Hey! be good. I'm pretty sure you're joking, but you had BETTER be. No favoritism for rude folk :-p Christian or not!
@GreekPhysique - Hahaha. We know each other.
@liferemainsbeautiful - @Simply_Cynical - Ok, good
just wanted to make sure poor Huey wasn't being beaten in my comment section by Christian thugs, LOL.
i am one of these "nice" people...and this is so true. i still have my morals but i have small weaknesses that are much harder to control without God there for support.
Sometimes, I think this person is trying to seduce me... 0_O <3
@Simply_Cynical - Yup, things never change.
I was just going to send you a message apologizing for being somewhat of an idiot here. I miss you.
@liferemainsbeautiful - @Simply_Cynical - GET A (CHAT) ROOM!!! :-p haha aww, you two are funny.
Thank you, you wrote a most refreshing post and retelling the story of the right young ruler put something in perspective for me. I agree with you totally. Oh yes, and I love Martha's message, love what she said.
@Auguststan - Thank you! =] I can't take credit for it though, most of the religious points I make are just composed of the different things I hear in sermons, lectures, etc. Thank God for the things Christ said and did when He came to earth, explaining things that are so versatile and relevant to us and our spiritual relationship with him, 2,000 years later.
Thanks for this thought-provoking post, sir.
Please consider another point of view, too: the classic reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Basically, it states that those who are truly Christian/saved/redeemed/born-again will remain so. Even with the ebbs and flows of commitment and devotion, there will be a gradual trend toward Christ-likeness. In light of this doctrine, I have a hard time believing that someone can be enlightened only to later fall away from the faith. The delusion here it seems is at the beginning, not the end. These people are deluded in thinking that they are believers and later fall away from nothing except a shallow commitment. In other words, no genuine saving faith is present.
In addition to using friends and good books as tools for recalibration, why not just start with the Scriptures? These will be the foundation for all good advice received from friends or books anyway.
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