November 23, 2011
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To Do Good, Must We Demonize Evil?
So I got into an interesting discussion over at Suggestive's page and decided to post about it here. I won't bore you with the whole context, but the idea is, can we do good by just thinking positive, affirming thoughts? Or must we also hate evil or demonize bad things?
So for example, I may want to lose weight, exercise, or be sexually responsible. I can tell myself I am a beautiful butterfly (ok, not THAT sappy) and that in order to live long, be respected, and love myself, I must do these things. It would be nice if I would do good purely for its own sake and for the benefits it provides. BUT
The more I think about it, the more I think it's impossible to not have some negativity if you're going to aim for an abstinent lifestyle of some kind. (Whether abstaining from sex, or drugs, food, you name it). Maybe it's just how we work with positive and negative stimuli.
As a Christian and wanna-be smarty pants, I've kind of struggled with this. Ideally, my positive thoughts would be able to run my life appropriately, right? Mind over matter, and even better, reward-based, well-thought-out mind over matter. But...
The best way to avoid eating that donut is to call it a parasitic scum intent on attaching itself to my belly fat, ha.
Or I exercise better when someone else is around, someone I can compete with and try to beat.
And for sexual responsibility, "wait for your wife or husband" doesn't have the same immediacy as "YOU WILL GET BUTT CANCER AND YOU WILL NEVER LOVE YOURSELF AGAIN." Err, ok, perhaps not quite in those words.
Hmm. Thoughts? Do we always need negative stimuli to do good? Can we do good without knowing what evil is, and hating it for its evil?
Comments (28)
Oh yes, props to Suggestive Tongue in that her views on sex are very different than mine, but
she was willing to take a look at other viewpoints. I respect and
appreciate that, and try to do the same myself.
without evil, can there be good?
I think a little bit of 'demonization' as you put it is necessary for the human psyche. We need to feel as though we are overcoming something to get better, even if we are competing with our former selves. It's just my opinion, though.
I think the important thing is to focus on what we value in a positive manner. For instance, to be sexually responsible does not mean demonizing sex or those who are more frivolous. it simply means I make the choice to enjoy sex, but only with someone I love. Sex itself is still beautiful, however that side of myself is special & not to be undervalued. To eat healthy doesn't mean donuts are crap, it simply means I value my body enough to feed it healthy foods.
I, personally, believe that our life perspective shapes our entire life experience. So yeah, I'm all about positive views!! =]
Evil is evil. We call it what it is.
Our motivation, though, as Christians, should be the love of God. God's love is a strong enough stimulus; it's strong enough to motivate an entire world, far beyond a single person, to do all the good works they could ever do in a million lifetimes.
Our problem is that we don't have enough of an experience of the indescribable love of God, not that we need negative stimuli. Even a taste of that love is enough to change a life. If we truly immerse ourselves in it, swim around in it, drown in it, it's way more than enough to motivate us to do good things forever.
@BenelliMan - I agree on this one. If there were nothing you could do that is bad, how would anyone know what good is? There has to be a differentiation for society to work.
I think this is why the Genesis story is so compelling: why did Adam and Eve know that they did wrong and were naked after they ate the fruit? It's a compelling philosophical question that I think can never have an absolute answer. It's always going to be different for each individual as we all have our own compelling arguments and viewpoints to reinforce our actions.
By suggesting there is such thing as objective "evil", we have already linguistically demonized it. Ergo, playing psychological games in order to define "evil" shows the lightness towards which we approach that linguistic structure - we must consistently define for it to have use. It's all pavlovian.
YOU'LL ALWAYS BE A BEAUTIFUL MONARCH TO ME. The problem I have with some of those books about waiting til marriage is that they use the wrong negative stimuli. Instead of saying, "OH HAY YOU'RE A USED PIECE OF TRASH IF YOU TOUCH A PENIS," maybe they could focus on how unhealthy sexual practices have consequences. (STDS, unhealthier relationships, etc) But I think lying and shaming is a big no-no. Donuts are bad, so if you're just factual about the negative consequences they cause, I would think people should be deterred. Same applies to sex, etc. No need to lie, or shame donut eaters. =P
Interesting. I think in order to truly find satisfaction in abstention, you need to perceive a greater good or satisfaction in not doing. Trying to create a negative in doing is artificial, temporary, and mostly unsatisfying, in the long run. Which is probably why it doesn't work, really!
I say, "Yes", we can do good without knowing evil.
I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil - Romans 16:19
It comes from loving God, the One who created us. Good comes from Love, not from evil. Love for God and a desire not to wound. For me that love comes every time I think of the sacrifice and suffering of Jesus. I have "not yet resisted unto death", but He sure did.
i think loving good is not the same as hating evil. at all. and you don't need to hate the donut to avoid it either. choosing not to eat it is more healthy psychologically. because then if you slip up and eat a donut, you are not a scum eating dirtbag. you are someone who ate a donut. walk another mile or something.
You can force yourself to do stuff you think is good, but eventually the pain and suffering catch up with you and you quit and completely go the other way. We are wired to pursue happiness. So over the long run, we better make happiness feeling pretty damn good.
Or else it's back to the donuts.
I'm pretty sure that Nathan would not have accosted David for having eaten a donut. There is a great deal of difference in the seriousness of donut-eating and adulterous sex....right? For the believer, going ahead with a sinful act would automatically be met with conviction by the Holy Spirit. No amount of rationalization will change things. Wrongs are best dealt with head-on. No sense trying to fool oneself that wrong is OK, or to concoct some made-up consequence to deter wrong actions.
Yes, I think we actually do have to hate evil in order to stay away from it.
I remember reading Norman Vincent Peale, who said that having a goal of "Not do this" was really counter effective. And I agree, if it is a vague situation, like "Not be like my Mom." Unless there is a bit more clarity, that might be hard to do. But the theory was to state positively the thing you want to move towards.
Well, that doesn't always seem to work.
My one big vice is reading. I practically can't walk past a book without stopping to at least flip thru it. And I can lose HOURS at a time in it. In fact, the more stress I'm under, the more likely it is that someone needs to literally drag me out of the book, kicking and fighting like the dickens, of course. But it isn't only stress. It's also the opposite, when I feel that I have enough lee-way to spare some time. Or if it just happens to be one of my favorites. I keep them right between my bed and the door, for easy access. Or if it's a new book. Or . . . Well, I'm good at debate. I can keep the reasons coming. I might have to sit down and read some to clear my head, first, but hey?!
So one of my goals is to cut down on how much time I'm lost in Fiction. And, unless I want to commit to scheduling the life out of me so that I have what I'm to work towards for every minute of the day, some vilification is in order.
It is also an essential part of life, don't you think? What is life without a struggle? Besides, better an abstract villain ("Them donuts") rather than a vilification of an actual person ("My spouse is trying to kill me by stressing me so that I'll eat more and die prematurely, leaving them with the insurance settlement!")
The word scum does not exist in my vocabulary. If you are not married by now you are no christian. Just because xangans don't reply to my comments does not mean anything negative. On the contrary, by ignoring me I am proving to god there is no mercy, and hence no god.
This post has my thoughts flying all over the place. If we don't then there isn't really anything to say or prove that it was good in the first place.
We *can* do good without thinking about evil, but I think it would be foolish to say one should never think about anything negative. Because you have to be aware. And if you never ever think about negative things, you can be a huge target for people who dwell on ways to take advantage of the innocent.
I think it depends. Like premarital sex... it's not really bad. Most people don't die from premarital sex and most people who have it go on to have a wonderful life. If you need to remind yourself of the negative consequences of it... unwanted pregnancy and STDs, there's nothing wrong with that. You are acknowledging the negative results from doing it. It would be wrong, IMO, to demonize the people who chose to have all the sex before marriage they want. That's when someone wades into dark waters and it's not right.
@Frost_Velissir and @BenelliMan - I agree with both of you.
As @Pickwick12 said, the love of God MUST be our prime motivation... II Cor. 5 - the LOVE of God constrains and compels us...
Underwent inexpressible agonies of soul for two or three days, at the
remembrance of my sins, and the bitter consequences of them. All the
while I was assured God has forgiven me; but I could not forgive myself
for sinning against so much light and love. I felt something for that
which Adam felt when turned out of Paradise; David, when he was
convicted of adultery; and Peter, when with oaths and curses he had
thrice denied his Master. At length, my Lord looked upon me, and with
that look broke my rocky heart, and I wept bitterly. When in this
condition, I wondered not at Peter's running so slowly to the sepulchre,
when loaded with the sense of his sin. Were I always to see myself such
a sinner as I am, and as I did then, without seeing the Saviour of
sinners, I should not be able to look up. ~ George Whitefield's Journals
As we grow in the experience of God's love (going beyond knowing God's love as a theological construct - having His love written on the heart ~ e.g. - end of Eph. 3), we can't help but begin to grow more and more like Him, which means we will desire goodness and holiness more and more, and along with that, we will despise and reject evil more and more. Our sin and our sin nature and even the thought of sinning will repulse and disgust us more and more. A love for God & holiness and a hatred for sin & evil really go hand in hand because God's character is one that loves holiness AND hates evil:
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Psalms 97:10 O you who love the LORD, hate evil!
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is GOD who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
The key here is it is God's Spirit who works in us the desire to love God and to become more and more like Him, loving holiness and hating sin. We need to continue in God's Word and to pray for His Spirit to strengthen us because this is a battle we cannot fight in our own flesh. John 15:4.
this is sort of like what a muslim means by 'jihad'. it's either war against the Infidel, or against one's own inner fidelities. Even so, we war not against flesh and blood, as St. Paul says, but we beat our bodies and bring them under submission. (1 Corinthians 9:17) TLC for other people, boot camp for our own fallen desires. And by 'demonization', we don't rail at or browbeat ourselves.
Hmm, when I really first encountered God's love, I immediately lost all of my desire to drink and do drugs. When I think about drinking, smoking, or doing drugs now I literally get a sick feeling in my stomach and the thought of doing them now seems so unappealing in comparison to being able to have a clear mind, feeling clean, communicating with God, and feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit (and before this encounter I used to smoke weed daily, go to raves and do ecstasy almost every weekend, and drank a lot and had a lot of fun while doing it). I used to also crave attention from guys, and the way that I felt about myself depended on whether or not guys noticed me (although it was a lot more subtle than it sounds, I never have been one to draw attention to myself.) But, now I no longer have this desire to find my identity in guys, I don't feel some sort of satisfaction when a guy looks at me a certain way or is clearly paying attention to me anymore. And that's something that I don't even think is possible to change on your own, because it's such a subconscious desire. So, I think what I'm saying is that we can't do anything on our own. We can't just think positively or negatively about something and expect to have a lasting change. The only thing that can really change us is when we really encounter the Lord and His love for us, because everything else pales in comparison. If you can't truly say that you have felt that, then you should pray for it to happen:)
I agree there's more ways to motivate us..but focusing on positivity can do huge things I believe.. after all, we are exposed to so much info each day, we only process like probably 1/100th of it. Do you believe the exact type of 1/100 of tidbits we focus on change with what we are thinking about? I think YES! The opportunities you see, I believe are dirrectly linked to your thoughts. It's not magic..I can see how logically it helps. Nothing extroardinatry about it..focus on what you want to know/ do/ see/ an opportunity you want to happen. You process more of what you are looking for...out of the huge amount of info around you...what tidbits your mind processes..are more what you focus on. Make sense?
Ok...I function like this: I tend not to think negatively and do negatively. I know it changes your character. Positive thinking reinforced by good deeds makes one a better person. I personally try to do good and not wish ill on anyone and I feel much happier. It really depends on what a person's idea is of bad and good. There's that whole grey area in between as well where it gets tricky. I'm sure there are things we can mutually agree are good and bad. On the other hand, I feel that without negativity/evil/bad, you can't become a better person. What you do in every situation influences who you are and it's the CHOICE we make that determines the outcome.
" Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved." -Helen Keller
I don't think depicting something as evil or demonizing it is necessarly healthy when making choices. That said, being super sappy positive can be a little nauseating as well. When you have a choice in front of you, it's just about weighing the options. Lets say you eat the donut, and end up feeling awful about it, well, you'll remeber for next time. Choices are not strickly right or wrong, all options have their ups and their downs, if you make a choice and it ends up being the wrong one for you, you will learn from that. Thus, i don't think thing needs to be demonized, its just a matter of thinking rationally about something.
social conditioning replaces our natural instincts, and then we react - go towards good, stay away from bad. we all learn good and bad differently though. right!
btw, butt cancer sounds pretty shitty.
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