January 15, 2012
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Extremes: Never Date a Woman in Your League?
This is the second in a series on experiments in extreme behavior. I'm starting the discussion, you tell me what you think.
"He's out of your league, girl." How many times have you heard someone tell you that? A good criticism of a lot of 20-somethings is that we want too much. We all know the decent-looking guy who never dates anyone because he's so busy trying to get models to like him, or the girl forever pining for the quarterback and rock star. And even if they do get one date with that special someone, they probably will just get used and discarded anyway. Someone with plenty of options has no reason to be loyal to you, right?
And yet...middle of the road has never worked that well. Think about those relationships where you said "On paper, we're a good fit for each other." Or "We seem to be about the same level." You both are getting an average deal. Not too great, not too bad--reasonable and safe. Standard. ...Boring?
Take a look at this fascinating OK Cupid survey that says that men don't message girls who are merely cute. http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-mathematics-of-beauty/ I'm not going to summarize it for you further, it's worth your time. It's easy to write this off as men being irrational. But are they? Maybe it's a better idea to be irrational in dating, to aim high and not settle. If you believe she's in your league, will you work as hard to make her yours? Will you sacrifice as much and put up with as much merely to settle down with someone who is much like you? During those times you fight or have issues, when she falls in your eyes, she is now below your league, not in your league. If she doesn't start high, your inevitable disillusionment will mean a break-up.
I don't believe a word I typed. I think. But it's worth thinking about.
Comments (45)
It's definitely important not to settle.
You have a very odd approach to relationships in general.
I used to think that "in my league" was all I could get. Part of me still does. Then another part of me thinks that hunting "beneath" me is the bet with the best odds in my favor, but as I grow older, I'm starting to listen more to that third part of me...the one that thinks Groucho Marx is not only hilarious, but wise, when he said "I would never join a club that would have me for a member."
Translation: If she's good enough for me, she's not good enough for me.
If I bother dating again, It's gonna be because I man up and decide to actively and boldly chase that girl that I just know I have absolutely no chance in hell of ever catching.
In the meantime, fishing really is an under-rated hobby...
@lanney - Is this a bad time to talk about how I apply game theory to my dates? yes?
@ShimmerBodyCream - Agreed. Hmm.
@AgainstTheWind1 - Sigh, Groucho gives good advice--maybe the other extreme is to date a woman below your league so she'll be eternally grateful. That sounds so terrible, though!
@GreekPhysique - yeah, that was the "best odds" part. I tried to do it once, but my conscience (and my patience) got the better of me. It lasted eight hours...
Game theory, applied to dating. Hmm... That may just be absolutely brilliant...
I think setting high standards only sets you up for a disaster. If you expect to much out of your significant other, you will consistently be disappointed by the little faults and flaws that come out. But on the other hand, the person you might think you don't have a chance with might actually be feeling the exact same way you are. Just because the pretty girl looks intimidating, doesn't mean she isn't smart or interested in the guy who digs computers and literature. It's a double standard I think. I totally relate to this though. Loved this post.
Maybe I'm too young for these kind of exchanges, but I've never heard someone tell me a bloke is out of my league. At school I had the popular kids giving me horrible looks because I had a boyfriend back then, and I guess they saw me as someone who should be alone forever haha. Kids are so nasty.
Anyway, I've never heard someone really say that to me, and if I did I would be offended. That doesn't mean I don't think it every day of my life though :
jeff thinks i was out of his league, i find that ridiculous. i think he settled lol..jk but i don't think i was out of his league. but that may be my lack of confidence. then again saying i was out of his league would be vanity. hmmm. i don't think anyone should "settle" though. this post was a bit confusing.
@GreekPhysique - AH, so that's what it is.
Very interesting article...and very nerdy lol. Funny to see how math got incorporated into this
GUYS...*rolls eyes*
My question is who tells you what league you're in? Baised on only the physical....? That is so hard to separate the outer physical and the internal.
Very strange and shallow way to look for anyone. o.O
Well that's why so many people are sad and lonely. They look only for what feel's right for them but not what is good for some one else...
We are a selfish group of beings >.<
Fun Read though!
@AgainstTheWind1 - Haha. Yeah, I can't deliberately date below my league--hurts my stomach, ha.
@IamWavess - It totally is a double-standard, to be honest. Now I'm remembering how I ignored a cheerleader and a flag team member in college...ha lots of tragicomedy in my past. I kind of winced, you brought back some funny memories by saying that. You're so right: men can definitely judge a pretty girl for being pretty. It's an odd discrimination, but exists! I still am working on this, to be honest.
@Pink_TeaCups - Aww. But you're super fun and clever! That goes a long, long way. And I don't mean to ignore your looks, mind you, I just don't want to make it seem like I was just considering externals when I wrote this post.
@grizzlybearr - Aww that's sweet of Jeff. I think you do tend to overemphasize some of your flaws, but many of us do.
@fukuoka_stars - LOL! Just based on your comment, I've already applied math to my analysis of you. :p kidding!
@MommyMarty22 - Internally, I'm a supermodel, of course. Ah, I do get your point, that's true. But it also goes on internals too--for example, a woman might think "Oh, that writer or poet over there is so creative, he'd think me boring!" even if it wasn't true.
i like the garfield chart!!!
i'm not sure if playing up your snaggletooth will get you dates. but, they're on to something! very interesting.
That was an interesting survey. I'm definitely guilty of trying to look my best and hiding my flaws in photos. I agree with the results of the survey, sort of. On the internet a person doesn't have to put them self out there as much as they would in person. Why send a message to someone who is cute when a message can be sent to someone who is reallyfreakinghot? The worst that can happen is that reallyfreakinghot person doesn't respond. However, in the real world it's definitely easier to start a conversation with someone who won’t cause you to drool or stumble over your words the entire time.
I think many people look for a person with traits they admire or someone they can learn from or look up to and that often translate into "dating up" if you will. Basically, They want someone they can be proud of. I do believe that guys go above and beyond and try harder when they feel a girl is out of his league and in the long run, even if the the relationship ends, the guy may have made changes(initially because of the girl) in his life that will be beneficial to him in the long run. However, I do not think a guy should make it a point to exclusively date women they believe to be out of their league because as someone already remarked, it is a recipe for disaster. However, Your last few lines spoke to me: It is possible if you feel as if you're dating someone who is just 'ok' or 'passable', Its very much like settling and during times of hardship, it may be difficult to know what you're fighting for because the person wasn't exactly a 'prize' in your eyes to begin with. I believed I touched on this in one of my blogs: http://cassie.datingish.com/753543940/why-arent-you-more-perfect/ .Check it out if you so please
-Cassie
I suck at boys. AT them. They are silly, trifling and confusing. I can't seem to find one worth my while. Or ballsy enough. Maybe I'm just too laid back about it all.
I like to say that I would never date a girl who would lower her standards far enough to date me.
I might have to think about my responds and come back to this: I think there is settled, because your standards are unreasonable, because you cannot seem to commit, and because you find someone unattractive yet stable/sane. I cant see someone think they are settling if they are in love with someone. I think they would feel lucky, as would the other person if the relationship was reciprocal. Personally, I wouldn't want to be with someone who I was settling for or they were settling for me. Now, I may initially feel like they are someone I would settle for, and those feelings might change.. but I cant see getting engaged or married to someone and during my toast say: I am so glad I settled for you and you settled for me. But I would like to instead say: I am so glad I am madly in love with you. I feel lucky to be with you, you are a beautiful & a wonder to me daily!
Everyone has a vulnerable insecure side, no matter which "league" they belong to. And if you figure out how to tap into that, you can make anyone putty in your hands.
@I8it - Manipulation... Lovely
So basically, I need to not be myself on a date so he'll see me as out of his league and not one of the guys. Now, you tell me!
@MommyMarty22 - that's what guys (often) do to us! not saying it's my modus operandi... but it's useful info. "The Art Of Seduction" is an intriguing book that goes into it more.
@I8it - Oh I understand
i don't really believe that anyone's out of anyone's league... as @DivaJyoti's post for today would tell you, its all about determination
interesting thoughts.
And here I thought you were an expert on dating.
p.s. Shimmer likes Dan more than you.
Having one heck of a time commenting ( glitches?)
But I digress.
Think it depends on what criteria is for " out of league". If out of league is more performance or looks based
, It's not really out of league if both parties value money, status, achievement etc. The evaluator is judging by human standards, but God doesn't value based on same
I say yes to going out of league and pursuing, working hard for some woman deserving of self sacrifice, risk taking and blood, sweat, tears. You will be expected to lay down your life in marriage and with family so it's good practice for a lifetime of showing grace, leading, pastoring, protecting, providing, loving more than yourself. She better be more than just mediocre. But make sure she is somebody who can sharpen you spiritually, help you be the best man you can be in Christ.
Beauty fades and success is fleeting. What really matters is doing what God puts on our hearts and expects us to obey whether we initially like it or understand it or not. that's been my experience anyway. I'm not married (yet idk bc maybe I never will be)
but I'm glad I have not settled, and had held out for God's best even if short lived or just for a time.
I think theories like this contribute to more and more people having the "single pity party" that everyone seems to complain about these days. "am I stupid if I settle for the average person?...oh I better don't do it" "will I get ditched?...well I better don't try" "Am I just average or even below?...I better don't trust ANYONE. i am worth nothing and stay alone".
It seems to me that the environment on an internet dating site would require a large basis in focusing on looks. If you take your data from a place where the environment demands really just one way of evaluating a person then your data will give you results favoring more attractive people.
Lets be honest, a list of a person's likes and dislikes is not of much use in determining a person's personality and approach to life. I'm pretty sure personality and approach to life would be more important than interests of appearance.
Also, from the parts of the article that i skimmed i saw nothing that even came close to trying to account for the different styles of pictures. Lets be honest, a girl can look a hell of a lot different dressed for a workout than dressed for a formal event. Comparing pictures of those two styles will give skewed results and will do so very reasonably.
this all seems to be about looks. physical attractiveness is highly subjective and while there are some people who are seemingly universally attractive because they appeal to such a broad range of people no one truly is. the point? we all look for what we find physically attractive, but once that is met there is another, more important level of attraction which has to do with who the person is on the inside.
I don't believe in 'leagues', but I believe in love at first sight that can transcend just about any barrier, including 'leagues'.
No one has ever said that a guy was out of my league and shouldn't attempt to snag him, but I've never been one to really go on a manhunt either. If you don't create the opportunity for such a thing to happen, it generally doesn't get said. I have myself thought someone was out of my league, such as if they were incredibly smart or part of a more popular crowd or the like.
I may not be one for approaching guys, but they rarely approach me either. Well, unless to ask for an intro to the much hotter friends I'm with, which has quite often happened. I guess, according to that article, this must be because I fall within that consistent "just cute" range putting me within their league, and thus not worth the effort *L0L*
I don't know. I don't know.
That OK cupid survey is so wrong. I have an account on their site I set up set to take quizzes. One day i put a picture up of a young cute girl who was not really pretty, just to see what would happen. I was flooded with interested guys . They love cute
OK I looked they do not know what they are doing. the more messaged girls all looked like they want to get have sex (cheaper looking). The sweeter looking girls are very attractive to men. But OkCupid is about fast hookups. The fastest moving guys are looking to get some and move on, hit and quit. If you look like you love to have sex. You will get a lot of attention but no keepers
I think you should really know what your league is before you decide whether s/he is out of yours or not
I never have heard that. Either people were afraid of saying it to my face or they just never did. I have heard (about one ex) that I was out of his league but he was at the most around a 2 on a good day. I don't believe in leagues though. I've seen really ugly, fat women dating men who could pass as models and vice versa. Leagues seem to only truly exist in high school and among the immature.
I think we should just date peeps that make us happy. If it works the way you want then that's what matters. Everyone's different, and they want different stuff: some people just want sex, some want distance, some wanna be stuck to each other 24/7, some wanna be used and abused, some wanna live a fairy tale... and lalallalaa. For me I just wanna have fun 'n be with peeps that share my interests!
No one should settle. But what constitutes being out of someone's league? Is it being hotter, smarter, having a better job or all of the above? Sometimes I find that most people focus on the "looks" part more so than anything else. If an unemployed woman is super hot and some geeky looking man who has a good job in finance likes her there are plenty of people who will say "She's out of your league." But it wouldn't work, vice versa.
And in general I think online dating is a bad idea. Unless it's a last minute resort. Otherwise people should stick to actual human interaction.
disillusionment=breakup?? that is so sad. if that's the case, the moment we hold no illusions about someone is the moment we no longer want them? pretty effed up if you ask me. that sounds more like the start of something very promising.but not in our culture i guess.
I don't really believe in "relationship Leauges", but I do think there is a point where you shouldn't pursue someone if they show obvious disintrest. As simple and dumb as it sounds, there are many cases where people go out of thier way, to push someone away.
I used to prefer being the hotter one simply because I thought that meant they'd appreciate me more. Jerk still cheated. Now I'm just confused.
This very real because when a guy finds interest in me I always think about whether or not he thinks I'm an easy or difficult target. In order to test that, I normally act as though I do not like them or like I only like them a little bit lol. This way I can tell what they think of me (whether or not I am in their league or not). Nonetheless none of this actually matters because once you have fallen in love, you cannot make such distinctions. This is why many movies have the stereotypical story lines where the "dumb" football player and "unattractive" nerd fall for each other. Couples are normally not that extremely different, but they do tend to compliment each other rather than being totally different or exactly the same. I am a firm believer in opposites attract. Not on the extreme ends, but that each partner makes up for what the other lacks so to speak. God bless!
Lexine
Man, sometimes I wish that @AgainstTheWind1 - guy would just shut up...
"If I bother dating again, It's gonna be because I man up and decide to actively and boldly chase that girl that I just know I have absolutely no chance in hell of ever catching."
Guilty. Heh.
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